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	<title>Comments on: Games As Interactive Storytelling
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	<link>http://journeytothesea.com/games-storytelling/</link>
	<description>an online magazine devoted to the study of myth</description>
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		<title>By: Alana Abbott</title>
		<link>http://journeytothesea.com/games-storytelling/comment-page-1/#comment-283</link>
		<dc:creator>Alana Abbott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 18:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://journeytothesea.com/?p=587#comment-283</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Salishan--I love that you brought in the idea of the ritual of dramatizing. When I was in Greece as a teaching assistant on a study tour this summer, we talked quite a bit about the difference between the dramatic arts in rituals of Dionysus (chaos) and Apollo (structure/civilization). It would be fun to discuss role playing games in that context!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Jason--fun link! I&#039;ll have to peruse it in some detail; my only real context for Tolkien and RPGs together was a Dork Tower (comic) reference to how Tolkien had obviously &quot;ripped off&quot; of D&amp;D&#039;s classes for the Lord of the Rings, from the voice of one of the characters who read Tolkien after years of gaming. (The other characters, of course, had to explain the historical context...)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;To answer your question, I don&#039;t think books and dice are purely necessary, but they give a set of shared parameters to the story. Two of the games I mentioned in the article were actually pure storytelling games--the Grail Quest and the demon slaying game. There are sometimes stumbling blocks in pure storytelling that don&#039;t happen when you have convenient rules. What&#039;s to stop the characters from just succeeding at everything? If you&#039;re the one running the game, how do you enhance the story through a character&#039;s failure without making the player feel picked on? Dice and rule books create boundaries and agreed-upon limitations to the way the story is told, so that the act of creation is a joint effort that ends less frequently in the &quot;Nuh uh, that&#039;s not what I did&quot; arguments that sometimes break up children&#039;s games of &quot;let&#039;s pretend.&quot; (At least, so one hopes! I&#039;ve heard plenty of game tables devolve into that sort of argument, as well.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I actually find collectible card games to be more about strategy than role playing games, so I&#039;m not sure I could apply them the same way. And I&#039;m not convinced that it&#039;s the random element of success or failure that enhances the imaginative play. But I do think that parameters that are embraced by the group involved in jointly creating a story are important--whether they take the form of dice or poker chips and cards (like the old Deadlands &quot;Weird West&quot; game) or rock, paper, scissors (as in some of the World of Darkness LARPs). The boundaries might take away some of the creative freedom of an individual, but they set the expectations of the community. This both enhances game play and, if everyone is coming together to create a story (rather than just hack and slash), makes the storytelling better.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Salishan&#8211;I love that you brought in the idea of the ritual of dramatizing. When I was in Greece as a teaching assistant on a study tour this summer, we talked quite a bit about the difference between the dramatic arts in rituals of Dionysus (chaos) and Apollo (structure/civilization). It would be fun to discuss role playing games in that context!</p>

<p>Jason&#8211;fun link! I&#8217;ll have to peruse it in some detail; my only real context for Tolkien and RPGs together was a Dork Tower (comic) reference to how Tolkien had obviously &#8220;ripped off&#8221; of D&amp;D&#8217;s classes for the Lord of the Rings, from the voice of one of the characters who read Tolkien after years of gaming. (The other characters, of course, had to explain the historical context&#8230;)</p>

<p>To answer your question, I don&#8217;t think books and dice are purely necessary, but they give a set of shared parameters to the story. Two of the games I mentioned in the article were actually pure storytelling games&#8211;the Grail Quest and the demon slaying game. There are sometimes stumbling blocks in pure storytelling that don&#8217;t happen when you have convenient rules. What&#8217;s to stop the characters from just succeeding at everything? If you&#8217;re the one running the game, how do you enhance the story through a character&#8217;s failure without making the player feel picked on? Dice and rule books create boundaries and agreed-upon limitations to the way the story is told, so that the act of creation is a joint effort that ends less frequently in the &#8220;Nuh uh, that&#8217;s not what I did&#8221; arguments that sometimes break up children&#8217;s games of &#8220;let&#8217;s pretend.&#8221; (At least, so one hopes! I&#8217;ve heard plenty of game tables devolve into that sort of argument, as well.)</p>

<p>I actually find collectible card games to be more about strategy than role playing games, so I&#8217;m not sure I could apply them the same way. And I&#8217;m not convinced that it&#8217;s the random element of success or failure that enhances the imaginative play. But I do think that parameters that are embraced by the group involved in jointly creating a story are important&#8211;whether they take the form of dice or poker chips and cards (like the old Deadlands &#8220;Weird West&#8221; game) or rock, paper, scissors (as in some of the World of Darkness LARPs). The boundaries might take away some of the creative freedom of an individual, but they set the expectations of the community. This both enhances game play and, if everyone is coming together to create a story (rather than just hack and slash), makes the storytelling better.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jason Fisher</title>
		<link>http://journeytothesea.com/games-storytelling/comment-page-1/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://journeytothesea.com/?p=587#comment-282</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A propos of this post, have you read John Rateliff&#039;s four-part post on the history of Tolkien-inspired RPG&#039;s? You can find it &lt;a href=&quot;http://sacnoths.blogspot.com/search/label/Tolkien%20RPGS&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (you&#039;ll want to read it from the bottom up).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I would ask you, though, does one actually &lt;i&gt;need&lt;/i&gt; rule books and dice? Or if so, is the rolling of the dice meant to mimic the intervention of the gods? And how about Magic: The Gathering cards? There, the random (i.e., &quot;divine&quot;) element come in the shuffling of the deck. To what degree are random elements like this necessary for mature creation-by-storytelling? (And &lt;i&gt;is it&lt;/i&gt; more mature?) These elements aren&#039;t usually found in children&#039;s games, are they? It seems to me that there&#039;s less active imagination going on in RPG&#039;s than there is in children&#039;s games. Do the dice (or cards) take away some imaginative or creative freedom?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A propos of this post, have you read John Rateliff&#8217;s four-part post on the history of Tolkien-inspired RPG&#8217;s? You can find it <a href="http://sacnoths.blogspot.com/search/label/Tolkien%20RPGS" rel="nofollow" onclick="urchinTracker('/outgoing/sacnoths.blogspot.com/search/label/Tolkien_20RPGS?referer=');">here</a> (you&#8217;ll want to read it from the bottom up).</p>

<p>I would ask you, though, does one actually <i>need</i> rule books and dice? Or if so, is the rolling of the dice meant to mimic the intervention of the gods? And how about Magic: The Gathering cards? There, the random (i.e., &#8220;divine&#8221;) element come in the shuffling of the deck. To what degree are random elements like this necessary for mature creation-by-storytelling? (And <i>is it</i> more mature?) These elements aren&#8217;t usually found in children&#8217;s games, are they? It seems to me that there&#8217;s less active imagination going on in RPG&#8217;s than there is in children&#8217;s games. Do the dice (or cards) take away some imaginative or creative freedom?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: salishan</title>
		<link>http://journeytothesea.com/games-storytelling/comment-page-1/#comment-280</link>
		<dc:creator>salishan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://journeytothesea.com/?p=587#comment-280</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanx for your remarks on games as creating shared realities by participation in
a grand story from our mythic past. While a story seems to be the basic unit of meaning
it is in the ritual of dramatizing together that we enter immediately into the consciousness of homo ludens to find we are most ourselves at play.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanx for your remarks on games as creating shared realities by participation in
a grand story from our mythic past. While a story seems to be the basic unit of meaning
it is in the ritual of dramatizing together that we enter immediately into the consciousness of homo ludens to find we are most ourselves at play.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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