Comments on: The Disobedience of Iblis in Sufism http://journeytothesea.com/disobedience-iblis-sufism/ an online magazine devoted to the study of myth Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:32:14 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: George Wassouf http://journeytothesea.com/disobedience-iblis-sufism/comment-page-1/#comment-1153 George Wassouf Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:10:05 +0000 http://journeytothesea.com/?p=45#comment-1153 <p>In Islam, Prostrating is of two kinds: </p> <p>It may an act of veneration and drawing closer to the one to whom one prostrates. This kind of prostration is worship, and should only be done for Allaah, according to the laws of the Prophets. </p> <p>The second type is a kind of greeting and honouring a person. This is the kind of prostration which Allaah commanded the angels to do in the case of Adam, so they prostrated to him as an act of honouring him. It was an act of worship towards Allaah on their part, because they were obeying His command to prostrate to Adam. </p> <p>http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/8492/adam</p> In Islam, Prostrating is of two kinds:

It may an act of veneration and drawing closer to the one to whom one prostrates. This kind of prostration is worship, and should only be done for Allaah, according to the laws of the Prophets.

The second type is a kind of greeting and honouring a person. This is the kind of prostration which Allaah commanded the angels to do in the case of Adam, so they prostrated to him as an act of honouring him. It was an act of worship towards Allaah on their part, because they were obeying His command to prostrate to Adam.

http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/8492/adam

]]> By: Randy Hoyt http://journeytothesea.com/disobedience-iblis-sufism/comment-page-1/#comment-82 Randy Hoyt Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:24:33 +0000 http://journeytothesea.com/?p=45#comment-82 <p>I can't recall Lewis ever mentioning Iblis in his written works, though he could very realistically have been acquainted with this story. I think I would agree with your point that Lewis was drawing from his own experience with apologetics. I know he asked the question why God would forbid such a thing as eating from the tree; one answer he must have encountered (though would not have personally embraced) is this view he gives to Weston.</p> <p>It's hard to read Lewis's <em>Perelandra</em> or <em>The Magician's Nephew</em> without feeling a resonance of <em>Paradise Lost</em>, but Weston's attempt to deceive the Lady differs quite a bit from Satan's in <em>Paradise Lost</em>. Milton draws more from the serpent's attempt to deceive Eve in Genesis 3 than Lewis did:</p> <blockquote> <p>Why then was this forbid? Why but to awe,<br /> Why but to keep ye low and ignorant,<br /> His worshippers? He knows that in the day<br /> Ye eat thereof your eyes, that seem so clear<br /> Yet are but dim, shall perfectly be then<br /> Opened and cleared and ye shall be as gods<br /> (<em>Paradise Lost</em> IX.703-708)</p> </blockquote> I can’t recall Lewis ever mentioning Iblis in his written works, though he could very realistically have been acquainted with this story. I think I would agree with your point that Lewis was drawing from his own experience with apologetics. I know he asked the question why God would forbid such a thing as eating from the tree; one answer he must have encountered (though would not have personally embraced) is this view he gives to Weston.

It’s hard to read Lewis’s Perelandra or The Magician’s Nephew without feeling a resonance of Paradise Lost, but Weston’s attempt to deceive the Lady differs quite a bit from Satan’s in Paradise Lost. Milton draws more from the serpent’s attempt to deceive Eve in Genesis 3 than Lewis did:

Why then was this forbid? Why but to awe,
Why but to keep ye low and ignorant,
His worshippers? He knows that in the day
Ye eat thereof your eyes, that seem so clear
Yet are but dim, shall perfectly be then
Opened and cleared and ye shall be as gods
(Paradise Lost IX.703-708)

]]> By: JackieD http://journeytothesea.com/disobedience-iblis-sufism/comment-page-1/#comment-78 JackieD Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:15:33 +0000 http://journeytothesea.com/?p=45#comment-78 <p>I think at that point Weston had been completely possessed by the 'Bent One' from Earth and was trying to tempt the Lady into the same fall as Eve, so he'd be the deceiver. </p> <p>It would be interesting to know if Lewis was familiar with the story of Iblis and the debate--I'd always assumed he'd drawn from his own experience with apologetics.</p> I think at that point Weston had been completely possessed by the ‘Bent One’ from Earth and was trying to tempt the Lady into the same fall as Eve, so he’d be the deceiver.

It would be interesting to know if Lewis was familiar with the story of Iblis and the debate–I’d always assumed he’d drawn from his own experience with apologetics.

]]> By: Randy Hoyt http://journeytothesea.com/disobedience-iblis-sufism/comment-page-1/#comment-72 Randy Hoyt Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:01:22 +0000 http://journeytothesea.com/?p=45#comment-72 <p>@JackieD -- Indeed he does; excellent connection! </p> <blockquote> <p>Weston: "There is <em>no</em> good in [this command]. Maleldil Himself is showing you that, this moment, through your own reason. [...] It is forbidding for the mere sake of forbidding [...] in order that you make break it. It is not [a] good [command]. Is not Maleldil showing you as plainly as He can that it was set up as a test[?]" (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/dp/product/074323491X/?tag=randyhoyt-20" rel="nofollow"><em>Perelandra</em></a> 117)</p> </blockquote> <p>In <em>Perelandra</em>, Lewis portrays Weston as being clearly <em>wrong</em> about this. It was not a test and they were not supposed to disobey it. (Was Weston deceiving the Lady or was he himself deceived? I don't remember if that detail is clear.)</p> @JackieD — Indeed he does; excellent connection!

Weston: “There is no good in [this command]. Maleldil Himself is showing you that, this moment, through your own reason. [...] It is forbidding for the mere sake of forbidding [...] in order that you make break it. It is not [a] good [command]. Is not Maleldil showing you as plainly as He can that it was set up as a test[?]” (Perelandra 117)

In Perelandra, Lewis portrays Weston as being clearly wrong about this. It was not a test and they were not supposed to disobey it. (Was Weston deceiving the Lady or was he himself deceived? I don’t remember if that detail is clear.)

]]> By: JackieD http://journeytothesea.com/disobedience-iblis-sufism/comment-page-1/#comment-68 JackieD Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:07:50 +0000 http://journeytothesea.com/?p=45#comment-68 <p>The alternative interpretation reminds me of Weston/Satan's temptation of the Lady in Perelandra. Wasn't there a quote somewhere along the lines of "But the command is a test, Maleldil <em>wants</em> you to disobey so that you can become truly wise" ?</p> The alternative interpretation reminds me of Weston/Satan’s temptation of the Lady in Perelandra. Wasn’t there a quote somewhere along the lines of “But the command is a test, Maleldil wants you to disobey so that you can become truly wise” ?

]]> By: Randy Hoyt http://journeytothesea.com/disobedience-iblis-sufism/comment-page-1/#comment-67 Randy Hoyt Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:04:39 +0000 http://journeytothesea.com/?p=45#comment-67 <p>@Jason Fisher -- Most of the artwork I found depicted Iblis as a "gnarly demon" and not as the great lover of God that some of the Sufi masters described. I wasn't sure if Iblis was portrayed in this image, though I also thought he might be one of the two you mentioned. Without certainty on this point, I decided to use a portion of the image that I thought captured well the solemnity and reverence of the scene -- even though the artist seems to have interpreted the story along the lines of the more traditional reading instead of the one I have presented here.</p> @Jason Fisher — Most of the artwork I found depicted Iblis as a “gnarly demon” and not as the great lover of God that some of the Sufi masters described. I wasn’t sure if Iblis was portrayed in this image, though I also thought he might be one of the two you mentioned. Without certainty on this point, I decided to use a portion of the image that I thought captured well the solemnity and reverence of the scene — even though the artist seems to have interpreted the story along the lines of the more traditional reading instead of the one I have presented here.

]]> By: Jason Fisher http://journeytothesea.com/disobedience-iblis-sufism/comment-page-1/#comment-66 Jason Fisher Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:33:39 +0000 http://journeytothesea.com/?p=45#comment-66 <p>A very enjoyable article, Randy. One question: I can't help noticing that the portion of the image you used above represents a pair of angels who <i>did</i> prostrate themselves before Adam. Was that a deliberate choice? In the larger source image, is one of the standing angels then Iblis? Perhaps the one behind Adam's seat, looking away? Or perhaps the one falling, Icarus-like, from the sky?</p> <p>I poked around just a little bit for other images of Iblis, and came across this <a href="http://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2008/02/middle-eastern-demons-ive-lost-track-of.html" rel="nofollow">pantheon of Islamic demons</a>. <a href="http://bp1.blogger.com/_xQwP8MNj0EA/R8h6SH7fLZI/AAAAAAAAE5k/Q2F9mXzwQP8/s1600-h/Hum%C3%A2.jpg" rel="nofollow">This one</a> looks especially gnarly. :)</p> A very enjoyable article, Randy. One question: I can’t help noticing that the portion of the image you used above represents a pair of angels who did prostrate themselves before Adam. Was that a deliberate choice? In the larger source image, is one of the standing angels then Iblis? Perhaps the one behind Adam’s seat, looking away? Or perhaps the one falling, Icarus-like, from the sky?

I poked around just a little bit for other images of Iblis, and came across this pantheon of Islamic demons. This one looks especially gnarly. :)

]]>